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- Radegast, also Radagast, Radigost, Redigast, Riedegost or Radogost is an old god of Slavic mythology. Since the name can easily be dialectically adjusted and translated as 'dear guest' or 'welcomed guest', Radegast was proclaimed as the Slavic god of hospitality and as such entered the hypothetical, reconstructed Slavic pantheon.
Radagast the Brown, known in Aman as Aiwendil, was a Maiar and member of the Heren Istarion (Order of Wizards). He was known for his lore in hers and animals, and was renowned as a master of shapes and changes of colours. At the urging of Yavanna, Saruman the White took him as a companion to Middle-earth, where he dwelt for some time in Rhosgobel, on the eastern eaves of Greenwood the Great.
| Radagast has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: June 19, 2020. (Reviewed version). |
| This article was nominated for deletion on 12 November 2019. The result of the discussion was keep. |
| WikiProject Middle-earth | (Rated GA-class, Mid-importance) | ||||
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| WikiProject Fictional characters | (Rated GA-class) | ||
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Radagast in Rhudaur[edit]
Dear All, I originally entered in a post along the following lines
- In terms of canonical Middle Earth geography, Radagast's presence in Rhudaur at this point in the narrative is surprising, as he would need to cross the Misty Mountains, whose relative impassibility is a consistent complicating plot device in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The only option viable for him would be crossing the High Pass, which is somewhat distant from Rhosgobel.
A couple of people keep treating this as irrelevant or vandalism, whereas I think it a valid point in the plot development of the Hobbit /difference between the books and film. I can see this needlessly developing into a edit war, so I would respectfully seek other's opinions on the matter. Adamm (talk • contribs) 03:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
- differences between book and film plot are generally irrelevant and not included unless they are given significant coverage in reliable sources. Your addition is original research, and while it may be true there is no indications it is significant enough to warrant entry. GimliDotNet (talk) 07:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
- The problem is this assumes that the film posits the same general geography as the books. This assertion needs to be sourced before we can reasonably talk of what adagast being anywhere implies. If you can find secondary reliable source analysis of Radagast in the film's that discusses this point, we can include it, otherwise I see no reason to.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Merge[edit]
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- The merger discussion was here. I am closing this discussion because it is sowing confusion.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Radagast, along with Gandalf and Saruman, is one of the Istari who is both named and appears in the well-known narratives. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. This just went through AfD, where – among other things – merging was on the table. /Julle (talk) 23:59, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- Andy Dingley, the merge discussion was here. It was properly signposted. I think the closure was irregular though.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- That was a discussion which went nowhere, superseded by an AfD, superseded by the discussion here. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- No, Andy. The AfD ended on 19 November 2019. The merge discussion then continued until February this year. You just commented on the wrong talk page.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- That proposal failed with no consensus. It was then superseded by an AfD and a second discussion on this page. But then it was re-opened and a fourth attempt to merge it was actioned, despite no mention of this, months later, having been raised on this page. All in a context where a handful of the same editors over and over are describing this as a 'Tolkiencruft hunt'. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:50, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Andy, you have your facts wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:54, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- That proposal failed with no consensus. It was then superseded by an AfD and a second discussion on this page. But then it was re-opened and a fourth attempt to merge it was actioned, despite no mention of this, months later, having been raised on this page. All in a context where a handful of the same editors over and over are describing this as a 'Tolkiencruft hunt'. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:50, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- No, Andy. The AfD ended on 19 November 2019. The merge discussion then continued until February this year. You just commented on the wrong talk page.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- That was a discussion which went nowhere, superseded by an AfD, superseded by the discussion here. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Andy Dingley, the merge discussion was here. It was properly signposted. I think the closure was irregular though.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Songs and flowers mac os. Jack Upland I believe you are correct: the merge link took one to Talk:Middle-earth peoples and it seemed clear enough. However, given the challenge and the related discussions which could have confused people, it may be best to start over. Future ghost (itch) mac os. I suggest we look carefully for evidence of notability and list it here, and then consider if Radagast is in fact separately notable. My feeling is not but if we have actual evidence in front of us then perhaps we can collectively make a rational decision. Anyway that's the theory, let's see what can be found. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:17, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Radagast Costume
- I think we have discussed it enough. In fact, I would completely opposed to restarting a merge proposal. After all, the discussion started in August last year. But I think that an uninvolved editor is supposed to determine consensus.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:53, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- OK, so how do we get such a person to take a look at it? --Chiswick Chap (talk) 03:45, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- See WP:MERGECLOSE. There are two options given. Whichever we choose, we have to be clear that there are two discussions, one here and one at Middle-earth peoples.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:33, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- It says 'You can post it at WP:Proposed mergers to get some help. If necessary, one may request that an administrator who is not involved to close the discussion, at the Requests for Closure noticeboard.' Will you be posting that? Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:05, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- You can if you want.--Jack Upland (talk) 16:23, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I've requested it here. As the situation is quite complex you might wish to check I've mentioned all that's necessary. Feel free to tweak it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Chiswick Chap, I think that's fine.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:05, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I've requested it here. As the situation is quite complex you might wish to check I've mentioned all that's necessary. Feel free to tweak it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- You can if you want.--Jack Upland (talk) 16:23, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- It says 'You can post it at WP:Proposed mergers to get some help. If necessary, one may request that an administrator who is not involved to close the discussion, at the Requests for Closure noticeboard.' Will you be posting that? Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:05, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- See WP:MERGECLOSE. There are two options given. Whichever we choose, we have to be clear that there are two discussions, one here and one at Middle-earth peoples.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:33, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- OK, so how do we get such a person to take a look at it? --Chiswick Chap (talk) 03:45, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- See just above, which is exactly about that question. I merged it, per consensus, and another editor reverted this. I've therefore asked for the merge to be closed (one way or the other) by an independent administrator, and we're now waiting for this to happen. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Well this is confusing.The request I posted has been marked 'done' by an administrator, Drmies, at 16:52 on 21 May 2020.We can take it, therefore, thatthe merger is now agreed, even though the thread above shows no change,so I'll do the redirect now.If Drmies would like to confirm this (and maybe mark the discussion above as closed) that would be very helpful.Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, Chiswick Chap! The merger discussion was here: [1]. I initiated at the target page as recommended by the guidelines. Subsequently, two editors started this posting. We discussed this back in March. See above.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks. Well, see there for what to do. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, Chiswick Chap! The merger discussion was here: [1]. I initiated at the target page as recommended by the guidelines. Subsequently, two editors started this posting. We discussed this back in March. See above.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Sources[edit]
Per the above:
- Birns, Nicholas (2007) 'The Enigma of Radagast: Revision, Melodrama, and Depth,' Mythlore: A Journal of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, and Mythopoeic Literature: Vol. 26 : No. 1 , Article 8. (pages 113-126) Available at: https://dc.swosu.edu/mythlore/vol26/iss1/8
- - Radagast plays a minor role in TH; a different minor role in LOTR; Slavic origin of name; then revised out of the text.
- - usable for notability, just about.
- Berman, Ruth (1985) 'Radagast in Middle-earth,' Mythlore: A Journal of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Charles
Williams, and Mythopoeic Literature: Vol. 11 : No. 3 , Article 18.Available at: https://dc.swosu.edu/mythlore/vol11/iss3/18
- - Poem about him. No use for notability.
- The Brown Wizard's Unexpected Politics: Speciesist Fiction and the Ethics of The Hobbit JL Schatz, Chapter 1 in Screening the Nonhuman: Representations of Animal Others in the Media, 2016
- - says that in Peter Jackson's Hobbit films, Radagast tries to save a dying hedgehog in Mirkwood; links this to accusation of animal deaths, off-set, and ethics. Radagast also distracts Orcs to allow Thorin's party to escape. §
- - not sure we can make much of all that.
- Reunion with Nature; Tolkien's the Lord of the Rings
Bus derby mac os. by Jamie Mosel, January 27, 2011, Religion 238http://www.jemosel.com/uploads/5/6/4/4/5644599/reunionwithnature_lotr.pdf
- - Radagast, like Bombadil, is in 'pure communion' but like him is unable to address the troubles of Middle-earth all around him.
- - small contribution.
- Shippey, Road to Middle-Earth
- - mentions 'Radagaisus' in Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
- Drout, Encyclopedia
- - mentions Radagast briefly in 'Wizards' article.
They all agree he's a minor character. He's not obviously notable from a scholarly perspective. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:19, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
A google search for popular but more-or-less usable sources returned just 75 hits including fluff.
- The Origins of Tolkien's Middle-earth for Dummies
- - says that R 'appears so briefly in LOTR that he is more of a plot device than an actual character.'
- Radagast the Brown music track by Howard Shore for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey.
Apart from that there's fancruft and twitter and discontinued statuettes. Doesn't seem notable to me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:28, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- On the other hand, there's quite substantial coverage of the adaptation into a popular film character, and whether it's true to the text. If this is not to be deleted we might as well have a decently-written article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Sources (part 2)[edit]
Is The Annotated Hobbit considered a primary or secondary source? Lava Lamps (talk) 20:23, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Primary. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:40, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Shaman illustration?[edit]
I'm not sure the picture of an Asian woman is appropriate here.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Neither race nor gender should make the slightest difference. It's the role that is being compared, and the historic photograph well illustrates that, along with the style of clothing and indeed the accommodation. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I recognise you have a totally different view of the use of illustrations. An Australian wagon of cotton to illustrate a wagon of tobbaco in the Shire. An Asian woman to illustrate Radagast. What next? An Eskimo woman to illustrate Frodo? An Australian sheila to illustrate Gandalf?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not illustrating him, illustrating shamanism. And you should not be speaking about other editors, me or anybody else, at any time. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I recognise you have a totally different view of the use of illustrations. An Australian wagon of cotton to illustrate a wagon of tobbaco in the Shire. An Asian woman to illustrate Radagast. What next? An Eskimo woman to illustrate Frodo? An Australian sheila to illustrate Gandalf?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Neither race nor gender should make the slightest difference. It's the role that is being compared, and the historic photograph well illustrates that, along with the style of clothing and indeed the accommodation. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
GA Review[edit]
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Radagast/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer:BennyOnTheLoose (talk·contribs) 18:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
| GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not) |
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Overall: |
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Happy to discuss, or be challenged on, any of my review comments. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk)
- Many thanks for taking this on! Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:39, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Copyvio and Plagiarism check
- Looked at all sources showing more than 3% match on Earwig's Copyvio Detector. No concerns - nearly all matches were due to titles.
- Noted.
Lead and Infobox
- His appearance in The Silmarillion isn't covered in the body of the article.
- There's hardly anything to say, but I've now said it.
- Should The Silmarillion be under primary rather than secondary sources?
- Done.
- Should The Silmarillion be under primary rather than secondary sources?
- There's hardly anything to say, but I've now said it.
- 'He features also ..' sounds to me like a phrasing that might be used by a character in the books. Consider 'He also features … '
- Fixed.
Adaptations
- 'and is expanded far beyond the brief role in the book.' needs another source.
- Cited.
Mac Os Catalina
- I couldn't access the Filmonic source link - possibly a temporary issue.
- Added Archive link.
- 'A worried Radagast watches as Gandalf enters Dol Guldur.' doesn't seem to be included in the source cited.
- Removed.
- The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies details aren't in the source cited.
Mac Os Mojave
- Cited.
Chiswick Chap I don't have much to say on this one. The article seems to me to be comprehensive, neutral, and appropriately supported by sources except where there is a little bit to do on the Adaptations section. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Radagast Mac Os Download
- Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm happy with the responses above. I spotted one other small thing - is 'Other' meant to be a subheading under Adaptations (Other rather than Other)?
- Good catch, demoted. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for all your work on the article. I'm happy to pass it for GA. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Good catch, demoted. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm happy with the responses above. I spotted one other small thing - is 'Other' meant to be a subheading under Adaptations (Other rather than Other)?
- Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
